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[Music]

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I'm right spread and this is somewhere

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in disguise

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[Music]

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I was called into the meeting on

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Thursday the panel members were seated

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around this table was a rather somber

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and impressive occasion actually I was a

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junior member and I remember feeling

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considerably nervous and apprehensive

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about being in front of this powerhouse

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of scientists but then for the past four

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years I had been scientific advisor to

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the US Air Force on this very problem

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there were two films that were of

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particular interest to the panel at that

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time one was a film taken by a Navy

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officer while on vacation in Utah near

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true Mountain Utah and the other was a

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film taken in Great Falls Montana by the

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owner of the local baseball team the

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Utah film had already been subjected to

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some thousand or so man-hours of

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analysis by the Navy's photographic

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interpretation laboratory I came away

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from the meeting in from the room with

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the distinct feeling however that the

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panel had deliberately moved to debunk

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the whole subject and not to give it the

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serious scientific attention which it

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deserved the voice you just heard was

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that of dr. J Allen Hynek noted

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astronomer professor in scientific

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adviser to UFO studies undertaken by the

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US Air Force under project sign project

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grudge and the best-known project

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Bluebook but as we heard

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Hynek was also brought in to contribute

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his time and skills on a committee known

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as the Robertson panel this panel was

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funded by the CIA in 1952 in response to

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widespread UFO reports the panel

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concluded that most UFOs could be

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explained as misidentification of

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mundane aerial objects and the remaining

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minority could in all likelihood be

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explained with further study not only

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that but they believed that a public

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relations campaign should be undertaken

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in order to debunk UFOs and reduce

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public interest in the entire subject

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Hynek disagreed that many of these

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reports were mundane having spoken to

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and investigated hundreds of UFO

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accounts

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he gradually went from skeptic and

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debunker to an open-minded believer he

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would eventually found cute folks in

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1973 a UFO research organization working

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outside of government jurisdiction many

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organizations like this would follow

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working alongside mainstream scientists

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in an effort to find answers to these

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UFO sightings that were happening all

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over the world but a blurry line had

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seemingly been drawn between the UFO

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world and the scientific world stigma

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and ridicule being the main cause but

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when had this ridicule and mistrust

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truly began when people is prominent as

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dr. Hynek are involved with UFO research

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does it not constitute a serious study

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without a debunking agenda and how does

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the history of UFOs play a role in the

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overall discourse of what we consider

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ufology later in the show we'll hear

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from a professor of modern history at

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Penn State University on just that but

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first I want to talk about an article

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that recently came out in the New York

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Times on April 24th it was written by

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Ralph Blumenthal and featured the work

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of Cheryl Costa a colleague of mine who

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also housed for my hometown of Syracuse

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New York go Orangeman the article caught

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my attention because it is extremely

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rare for the UFO topic to be covered in

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the New York Times let alone be taking

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as seriously as it is here the article

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is titled people are seeing UFOs

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everywhere and this book proves it okay

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so it's not the most eloquent headline

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of all time but it gets right to the

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point

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UFOs are reported all over the world but

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Cheryl and her spouse Linda have

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undertaken the arduous task of compiling

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the first-ever comprehensive statistical

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summary of Close Encounters organized

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county-by-county in each state and the

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District of Columbia from the years 2001

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to 2015 it is literally a book of charts

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and graphs in which they published in

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book form called UFO sightings Desk

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Reference they were able to obtain their

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data from two organizations

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and the national UFO Reporting Center

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when asked why she decided to take on

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this project

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Cheryl stated we are doing the

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government's job for them we wanted to

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do our bit for disclosure it's something

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the government should have been doing

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were doing scientific research what's

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crazy is not being willing to look at

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research now I spoke to Cheryl the day

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this article released and she told me

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that this article could really open

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people's eyes to the proliferation of

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UFO reports across the country from

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County to County City the city and state

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to state level and I completely agree

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with her on this not only that but the

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book even breaks down the type of UFO is

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reported the times and the exact

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locations if you've ever wanted to know

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what's what with your state city and

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town in terms of UFOs I can't recommend

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adding this book to your UFO library

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enough and if this article has anything

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to prove it's that mainstream media with

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all its faults is willing to tackle the

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UFO question even if the work is being

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done on a civilian level just like J

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Allen Hynek in so many others across the

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world like Cheryl I post a link to the

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article in the show notes and wanted to

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personally congratulate Cheryl and Linda

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on this achievement and on the release

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of this essential reference book

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we'll have them on to discuss in the

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near future now for today's guest Greg a

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geek in is associate professor of modern

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history at Penn State University where

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he conducts research and teaches about

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the history of the human sciences and

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medicine he is presently reading a

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history of UFOs and alien contact as a

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global cultural phenomenon in the 20th

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and 21st centuries he also runs the

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noted blog the UFO past which explores

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the UFO and alien contact phenomena

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today we talk about the mistrust between

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UFO researchers and the mainstream

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scientific community and we put the

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question forward as to why academia and

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historians in particular seem to have

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shied away from the entire UFO subject

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so without further ado let's talk to

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Greg a geek in

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today we're going to hear from an

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unconventional guest in the best of ways

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guys and someone whose work I have come

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to deeply respect in a field that

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frankly sorely needs it and that is mr.

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Greg a geek in associate professor of

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modern history at Penn State Greg thank

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you so much for joining me today sure

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I'm happy to be here yeah so we've

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connected a few times now I did feature

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you in the book in a section that

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doesn't get brought up often and that

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was the chapter in my book based solely

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around science verse you follow gee and

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I had found a really good article that

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you'd written for the public

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understanding of science journal and

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that's how we connected and then we once

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again connected in Arizona that was a

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very serendipitous thing that I wasn't

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expecting yeah that was that proved to

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be really neat right well I'm sure we'll

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get to how you how you and I met there

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and what we were doing at some point

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down the line absolutely yes we will

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well I guess a good way to start is I

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have to ask as I'm sure some of the

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listeners are very interested how does a

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professor of modern history get involved

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with the UFO topic what were you

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thinking man I've had some people ask me

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that well I'll give you the long version

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how's that person's the long version is

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actually I think you start out with my

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youth okay so like so many people I know

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who get involved who talked about

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getting interested in UFOs and alien

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contact and all that stuff it all began

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when I was a kid I was utterly utterly

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fascinated with this stuff growing up

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I'm old enough to say that had we were

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talking about the the late 60s in the

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1970s and I could not stop reading about

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the stuff wanting to hear about this

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stuff and for me it was this sense of

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discovery it was this sense of here was

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a riddle what is this is this something

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that you

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genuine if it is something genuine what

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is it all add up to and that's where I

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think I initially innocence got the bug

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but from there really what happened was

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then I also became exposed to debunkers

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people like Carl Sagan who were who I

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would I now sort of see is much more of

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a kind of a historically much more of a

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moderating figure but we might get to

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that at some point um even people like

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cell class and people like that and

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that's who interested me I was I was

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really curious about that and so I read

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a lot about their stuff I loved hearing

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interviews with them even got to see

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Carl Sagan one set up at a local

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university Wow talk yeah that was that

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was great that was fantastic and that

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you know very naturally curious person

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obviously that's why I guess I ended up

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becoming an academic and that's where I

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really was interested in this stuff and

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I will say that as time went by as I

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went perfect got into after high school

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and into college the interest kind of

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waned and my interest when in other

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kinds of directions and things so now

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fast forward many many years and fast

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forward to a few years ago a colleague

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of mine who I really respect this great

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research was approached me we were

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talking we were actually on a panel

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together and one of the got to know

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about me is I kind of wear a number of

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different hats I'm uh I'm a historian of

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science and medicine but I also am a

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historian of modern Europe and modern

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Germany and there are a lot of people

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who don't know anything about my life as

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a historian of science and only know me

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as a historian of Germany and she was on

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a panel with me and she was giving this

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paper on this really interesting table

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Lepus in interesting odd kind of

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charismatic figure after World War two

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running around Germany proselytizing the

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Germans and and she was saying that it

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was part of a project that she was

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working with somebody that was a history

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of the occult in Germany

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I came to her after and I said you know

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I've always wondered did did Germans did

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the whole UFO thing ever happen in

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Germany she's like I have no idea why

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don't you write something on that and I

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saw I said - I think I said oh I don't

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have time for that I've got other things

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I got it no but you know it triggered

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something in me and I thought well let

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me just look into it and I started

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digging around and in fact I found all

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this stuff about the first reports of

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UFOs and the first reports in Germany

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after World War two and in the 1950s and

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I ended up writing an article on it I

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ended up sending it to her and said you

275
00:12:20,930 --> 00:12:18,600
know what I've written this up but I

276
00:12:22,670 --> 00:12:20,940
don't think any of it has to do anything

277
00:12:24,470 --> 00:12:22,680
with the occult for you I don't think

278
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:24,480
you're going to find it really

279
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:26,130
particularly germane and she said yeah

280
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:27,930
yeah it's not so I sent it off to

281
00:12:32,870 --> 00:12:30,810
another place but but that's when I

282
00:12:35,210 --> 00:12:32,880
started working on that I started

283
00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:35,220
talking with friends Nathan and I

284
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:38,460
remember one friend in particular and he

285
00:12:44,090 --> 00:12:41,040
said you know you ought to work on a

286
00:12:46,340 --> 00:12:44,100
whole history of the whole UFOs and I

287
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:46,350
was like now I can't do that and he said

288
00:12:54,350 --> 00:12:49,730
why not my son yeah you're right why not

289
00:12:58,030 --> 00:12:54,360
and for me it's been in a sense it's not

290
00:13:00,350 --> 00:12:58,040
just for me this kind of curious new

291
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:00,360
subject matter to get into for me it's

292
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:02,970
kind of almost like going home I now

293
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:06,330
read and poring over things I remember

294
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:08,370
encountering when I was much younger

295
00:13:13,670 --> 00:13:11,040
now with the you know the eyes of an

296
00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:13,680
adult but also with the with the head of

297
00:13:19,970 --> 00:13:16,770
a historian and so for me it's kind of

298
00:13:22,250 --> 00:13:19,980
an interesting phenomenon for me

299
00:13:25,970 --> 00:13:22,260
personally because I come back to

300
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:25,980
something that I once remember poring

301
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:28,290
over in a lot of detail but now I do it

302
00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:29,760
into the kind of a different way and

303
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:31,740
that's kind of for me in part the

304
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:35,250
enthusiasm I have wow that that's that's

305
00:13:39,230 --> 00:13:36,810
such an interesting way to look at it

306
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:39,240
Greg I know I don't know if you feel the

307
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:41,760
same way but yes I became struck and

308
00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:44,010
fascinated by this topic at a very young

309
00:13:47,300 --> 00:13:46,020
age as well when you know your

310
00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:47,310
imagination is

311
00:13:51,530 --> 00:13:49,529
running wild you're seeing these images

312
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:51,540
of flying saucers and books and you're

313
00:13:56,660 --> 00:13:54,090
imagining the people piloting these

314
00:13:59,330 --> 00:13:56,670
really come from and then as you get

315
00:14:02,540 --> 00:13:59,340
older and you're skeptical lens starts

316
00:14:05,570 --> 00:14:02,550
to come in you know that that that'll

317
00:14:07,550 --> 00:14:05,580
happen but then that core phenomenon

318
00:14:11,630 --> 00:14:07,560
that core fascination with you fault

319
00:14:13,579 --> 00:14:11,640
with UFOs I should say it remains and

320
00:14:15,530 --> 00:14:13,589
there are parts of it that remain and

321
00:14:18,380 --> 00:14:15,540
that that's what I find most fascinating

322
00:14:20,510 --> 00:14:18,390
that even as you grow older and you

323
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:20,520
become more I don't want to use the word

324
00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:23,970
cynical but you know I think regret the

325
00:14:30,079 --> 00:14:26,910
perfect word there are those fascinating

326
00:14:31,310 --> 00:14:30,089
mysteries that still remain yeah I think

327
00:14:34,910 --> 00:14:31,320
so I think so

328
00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:34,920
yeah and that's that to me is part of

329
00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:37,770
what it keeps sparking this interest and

330
00:14:43,460 --> 00:14:40,500
triggering it and and and and to now

331
00:14:46,940 --> 00:14:43,470
also do what I do right because my money

332
00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:46,950
I come to this as a historian now with

333
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:48,960
years of experience of writing on a

334
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:52,290
variety of subjects as I have done over

335
00:14:59,690 --> 00:14:56,610
the years and what for me with that with

336
00:15:02,600 --> 00:14:59,700
that what I what I'm doing is something

337
00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:02,610
that of course I never back then when I

338
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:04,920
was younger I never thought of it in

339
00:15:12,590 --> 00:15:07,290
these terms but in a sense what I what I

340
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:12,600
do is um to really ask historical

341
00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:14,610
questions about all the different

342
00:15:21,500 --> 00:15:17,780
participants in this drama surrounding

343
00:15:25,070 --> 00:15:21,510
UFOs so I am interested in putting if

344
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:25,080
you will everybody who has sort of been

345
00:15:30,140 --> 00:15:27,690
engaged in this topic you know in some

346
00:15:32,090 --> 00:15:30,150
form or another that's that's relevant

347
00:15:35,449 --> 00:15:32,100
obviously not literally everybody but

348
00:15:37,699 --> 00:15:35,459
but put them on all of us really under

349
00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:37,709
the microscope and by that what I mean

350
00:15:46,190 --> 00:15:44,400
is I want to ask questions about who

351
00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:46,200
became interested in these kinds of

352
00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:48,150
things how did they become interested

353
00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:50,670
and when how did those interest change

354
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:53,510
over time over time and that means

355
00:15:59,150 --> 00:15:56,610
looking at the history of ufology for

356
00:16:00,960 --> 00:15:59,160
instance and seeing how it transformed

357
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:00,970
and changed over time

358
00:16:07,499 --> 00:16:04,720
looking at not just the reports about

359
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:07,509
alien contact over the over the decades

360
00:16:13,470 --> 00:16:10,480
but how people responded to those in

361
00:16:15,809 --> 00:16:13,480
different ways over time and then added

362
00:16:18,329 --> 00:16:15,819
to that the other thing that I don't

363
00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:18,339
think I sense then but now in retrospect

364
00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:21,699
I realize I was doing myself is to also

365
00:16:27,269 --> 00:16:24,220
appreciate the fact that when you write

366
00:16:30,269 --> 00:16:27,279
the history of UFOs and the history of

367
00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:30,279
the UFO phenomenon you also have to

368
00:16:35,939 --> 00:16:33,670
include in that the history of the

369
00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:35,949
scientific community the history of

370
00:16:41,939 --> 00:16:38,500
debunkers and how about the history of

371
00:16:43,499 --> 00:16:41,949
just plain old folks wow I guess like

372
00:16:45,540 --> 00:16:43,509
like you and me

373
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:45,550
growing up right who are just kind of

374
00:16:50,340 --> 00:16:48,490
curious about this stuff right I will

375
00:16:52,590 --> 00:16:50,350
say right off the bat I have never seen

376
00:16:55,050 --> 00:16:52,600
an unidentified I've seen things I

377
00:16:57,389 --> 00:16:55,060
didn't understand what they were in the

378
00:16:59,999 --> 00:16:57,399
sky but I never seen anything that would

379
00:17:02,869 --> 00:17:00,009
have struck me as a flying saucer in my

380
00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:02,879
life I was absolutely curious

381
00:17:08,579 --> 00:17:05,110
phenomenally curious about all the stuff

382
00:17:11,579 --> 00:17:08,589
so in part you also have to add those

383
00:17:15,510 --> 00:17:11,589
types of folks into the conversation of

384
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:15,520
how this phenomenon was understood and

385
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:17,679
how those understandings changed over

386
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:21,610
time so for me the the UFO phenomenon is

387
00:17:27,569 --> 00:17:25,600
what I think one might call in some in

388
00:17:31,230 --> 00:17:27,579
some sociological circles cold world

389
00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:31,240
that the world of UFOs with all of these

390
00:17:36,690 --> 00:17:33,520
kinds of casts of characters all

391
00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:36,700
involved all playing a part in in this

392
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:39,580
drama that is played out over now what

393
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:42,730
is it almost seven decades since the

394
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:46,030
Kenneth Arnold sighting right well let's

395
00:17:52,460 --> 00:17:48,490
let's sort of unravel that Greg in your

396
00:17:55,770 --> 00:17:52,470
opinion that understanding or that that

397
00:17:58,860 --> 00:17:55,780
scientific look at this phenomenon when

398
00:18:01,110 --> 00:17:58,870
when did you in your research come to

399
00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:01,120
find that the scientific institutions

400
00:18:06,510 --> 00:18:03,280
when they started taking this topic

401
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:06,520
seriously if ever yeah it's a really

402
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:09,250
it's an interesting issue it all depends

403
00:18:14,610 --> 00:18:11,530
on how we want to understand what it is

404
00:18:20,610 --> 00:18:14,620
that the scientific community was in

405
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:20,620
Istavan so one could say that scientific

406
00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:24,960
institutions have either never or rarely

407
00:18:31,890 --> 00:18:29,290
shown any kind of interest in the UFO

408
00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:31,900
phenomena I don't think that's really

409
00:18:37,470 --> 00:18:33,910
the case but one could somewhat make

410
00:18:40,049 --> 00:18:37,480
that argument in the sense that most of

411
00:18:42,750 --> 00:18:40,059
the major scientific institutions you

412
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:42,760
know the bodies and organizations and

413
00:18:50,130 --> 00:18:45,640
and the major institutions of higher

414
00:18:53,010 --> 00:18:50,140
learning universities right most of them

415
00:18:56,490 --> 00:18:53,020
for many many decades or at least the

416
00:19:04,230 --> 00:18:56,500
first few decades wanted to just simply

417
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:04,240
I neglect the topic of UFOs and alien

418
00:19:09,930 --> 00:19:07,570
contact they didn't really tend to make

419
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:09,940
any kind of major pronouncements on the

420
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:14,050
subject they didn't hold have scientific

421
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:15,850
commissions that were formed or anything

422
00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:19,090
like that to study the phenomenon and

423
00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:22,750
generally the kind of tacit assumption

424
00:19:28,140 --> 00:19:26,440
was that this stuff is so silly or so

425
00:19:31,410 --> 00:19:28,150
ridiculous that we don't really need to

426
00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:31,420
get into it what you what I found was in

427
00:19:37,470 --> 00:19:33,820
certain places what you try and say in

428
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:37,480
the 50s was oftentimes an astronomer or

429
00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:40,570
an astrophysicists might be asked by a

430
00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:43,390
journalist about a sighting or about

431
00:19:49,230 --> 00:19:45,370
some phenomenon and then they would sort

432
00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:49,240
of chime in on the subject that you sees

433
00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:51,630
that starting to change some in the

434
00:19:57,660 --> 00:19:54,760
1960s I think in the 60s and 70s is

435
00:20:00,900 --> 00:19:57,670
probably in some ways a kind of a heyday

436
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:00,910
when you start to see academic

437
00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:05,410
scientists who work in this in an area

438
00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:07,750
that would be relevant directly germane

439
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:10,270
to the fee to the whole question of

440
00:20:15,299 --> 00:20:12,910
extraterrestrial visitation you start to

441
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:15,309
see them demonstrate more interesting

442
00:20:19,919 --> 00:20:17,410
you do have people like James McDonald

443
00:20:22,940 --> 00:20:19,929
in the 1960s playing a prominent role

444
00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:22,950
you see even people like Carl Sagan

445
00:20:28,350 --> 00:20:25,660
expressing interest in this in the

446
00:20:31,169 --> 00:20:28,360
subject you get of course the

447
00:20:34,169 --> 00:20:31,179
the the the development in the United

448
00:20:37,289 --> 00:20:34,179
States in 1966 is the founding the

449
00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:37,299
setting up of the condom committee that

450
00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:38,740
was funded by the Air Force very

451
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:42,190
controversial panel that meets and or

452
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:44,110
you know and studies the subject for two

453
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:47,440
years I know most ufologist are quite

454
00:20:51,210 --> 00:20:49,090
critical of the work of that committee

455
00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:51,220
quite rightly so I think it probably in

456
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:54,510
the end and but even after that you know

457
00:21:00,750 --> 00:20:58,570
1969 the American Association for the

458
00:21:04,799 --> 00:21:00,760
Advancement of science under with Carl

459
00:21:08,909 --> 00:21:04,809
Sagan Thornton page organized a panel on

460
00:21:11,010 --> 00:21:08,919
the subject of UFOs so there is there is

461
00:21:12,750 --> 00:21:11,020
a phase in which certain kinds of

462
00:21:16,950 --> 00:21:12,760
leading figures and even leading

463
00:21:21,330 --> 00:21:16,960
institutions do say this is worthy of

464
00:21:24,090 --> 00:21:21,340
study this is worthy of analysis now if

465
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:24,100
we understand and we think of the UFO

466
00:21:30,930 --> 00:21:25,809
phenomena in the sense I said before the

467
00:21:33,810 --> 00:21:30,940
world of UFOs and then what is clear is

468
00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:33,820
that it's social scientists of various

469
00:21:38,430 --> 00:21:36,160
kind who have since probably I'd say

470
00:21:40,950 --> 00:21:38,440
right around the mid 1960s have shown a

471
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:40,960
great deal of interest in the size and

472
00:21:45,530 --> 00:21:42,700
have taken it seriously as a

473
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:45,540
sociological phenomenon so we have

474
00:21:51,659 --> 00:21:48,450
anthropologists sociologists social

475
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:51,669
psychologists clinical psychologists of

476
00:21:57,299 --> 00:21:54,010
various because folklorists who have

477
00:21:59,490 --> 00:21:57,309
written numerous numerous articles over

478
00:22:04,049 --> 00:21:59,500
the decades since like I said a mid to

479
00:22:07,260 --> 00:22:04,059
late 1960s looking at social UFO

480
00:22:11,820 --> 00:22:07,270
organizations UF of the perception of

481
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:11,830
UFOs and the psychophysics of it of the

482
00:22:18,450 --> 00:22:15,610
phenomenon analysis of the kinds of

483
00:22:21,150 --> 00:22:18,460
tales that are recounted by contactees

484
00:22:23,340 --> 00:22:21,160
people like that all of that has been

485
00:22:25,980 --> 00:22:23,350
studied in a great deal of depth and

486
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:25,990
continues to go on so in that sense

487
00:22:32,340 --> 00:22:29,250
people take the phenomenon

488
00:22:34,590 --> 00:22:32,350
sociologically seriously but they don't

489
00:22:37,470 --> 00:22:34,600
necessarily take seriously the claims

490
00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:37,480
that in fact aliens are visiting us in

491
00:22:43,050 --> 00:22:40,390
in these in these machines we

492
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:43,060
a third way however I would say in which

493
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:45,850
you'd have to say that scientists have

494
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:48,850
always always taken this stuff seriously

495
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:51,730
and that is with regard to the

496
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:53,760
possibility of there being

497
00:22:59,460 --> 00:22:56,410
extraterrestrial life and to thinking

498
00:23:02,190 --> 00:22:59,470
about what communication with those

499
00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:02,200
beings would be like what the pop the

500
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:04,780
probabilities of an engagement with them

501
00:23:11,310 --> 00:23:07,570
would be at any particular period of

502
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:11,320
time we know that historians of science

503
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:13,510
have shown that dating back to the

504
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:22,050
tacit assumption and something is quite

505
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:23,730
Express an assumption of most

506
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:26,650
astronomers was that in fact other

507
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:29,770
planets were inhabited and really when

508
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:31,930
you look in them say even in the 19th

509
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:34,080
and early 20th century it was widely

510
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:37,570
accepted that probably planets within

511
00:23:45,810 --> 00:23:40,510
our solar system were inhabited by

512
00:23:47,910 --> 00:23:45,820
intelligent civilizations and so that

513
00:23:51,630 --> 00:23:47,920
already was there and there was there

514
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:51,640
was already in you know different

515
00:23:54,810 --> 00:23:53,410
periods of time but particularly say if

516
00:24:00,080 --> 00:23:54,820
you look at the interwar years in the

517
00:24:02,370 --> 00:24:00,090
1920s a actual attempts were sort of or

518
00:24:04,230 --> 00:24:02,380
projects were sort of set in motion to

519
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:04,240
think through and to explore the

520
00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:07,990
possibility how might we communicate

521
00:24:11,730 --> 00:24:09,670
with these intelligent means

522
00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:11,740
particularly with people who believed

523
00:24:17,750 --> 00:24:14,460
that Mars was inhabited by intelligent

524
00:24:21,810 --> 00:24:17,760
civilizations and so there all sorts of

525
00:24:24,510 --> 00:24:21,820
ideas were put forward how we might do

526
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:24,520
that how we might communicate using all

527
00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:27,970
sorts of lenses that might sets of light

528
00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:31,060
in that direction in some way or the use

529
00:24:36,090 --> 00:24:33,580
of radio was seen as a possible way of

530
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:36,100
at least hearing something from these

531
00:24:42,750 --> 00:24:39,250
other planets and so by the time you get

532
00:24:45,270 --> 00:24:42,760
to the 1960s for instance you already

533
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:45,280
have this kind of idea established well

534
00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:47,890
with radio astronomy that's developed

535
00:24:54,060 --> 00:24:50,980
after the war after World War two you

536
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:54,070
then have set up for yourself all the

537
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:55,840
additions that are ripe for what's going

538
00:25:00,030 --> 00:24:58,330
to be established at the beginning of

539
00:25:02,910 --> 00:25:00,040
the 60s the search for extraterrestrial

540
00:25:05,610 --> 00:25:02,920
intelligence the SETI project right the

541
00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:05,620
SETI project and I find this very

542
00:25:10,380 --> 00:25:08,500
fastened and I don't know if people like

543
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:10,390
Seth Shostak and others really talk

544
00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:13,390
about this much but but the SETI project

545
00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:16,390
and the kinds of ideas that it was that

546
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:18,190
it has historically been playing with

547
00:25:23,910 --> 00:25:20,530
and the kind of motivations of the

548
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:23,920
people involved in setting over the over

549
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:27,250
the decade there's a great great deal of

550
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:30,610
resemblance with ufology in my view and

551
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:33,250
there's a way in which I think SETI as a

552
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:36,310
project and SETI is not just a project

553
00:25:43,230 --> 00:25:40,090
and having a purpose but as something

554
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:43,240
that also carries with it a set of

555
00:25:49,230 --> 00:25:46,690
values right is something that has a lot

556
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:49,240
in common with ufology and so i think

557
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:51,760
that's one of those places where you

558
00:25:58,530 --> 00:25:55,330
have to say a SETI people involved in

559
00:26:00,540 --> 00:25:58,540
SETI people involved in ufology actually

560
00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:00,550
in many ways have a lot more in common

561
00:26:07,670 --> 00:26:03,430
than maybe often is seen as being the

562
00:26:10,820 --> 00:26:07,680
case right yeah we always tend to to

563
00:26:13,890 --> 00:26:10,830
separate these two I know many

564
00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:13,900
quote-unquote ufologists who won't even

565
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:16,390
look at the work of SETI they think it's

566
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:19,110
a waste of time they believe that this

567
00:26:23,250 --> 00:26:21,310
possible non-human intelligence is

568
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:23,260
already here visiting the planet and

569
00:26:28,260 --> 00:26:25,330
again Greg like you said that is an

570
00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:28,270
entire sociological can of worms to open

571
00:26:35,070 --> 00:26:31,180
but what I find most fascinating too is

572
00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:35,080
this idea that the UFO can be connected

573
00:26:42,330 --> 00:26:38,520
to any hard science any soft science

574
00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:42,340
even you know in your case in terms of

575
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:45,820
history we can connect this topic to

576
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:48,250
almost anything in our society and that

577
00:26:54,870 --> 00:26:51,250
is in my opinion an extremely powerful

578
00:26:57,900 --> 00:26:54,880
thing no matter what the source of these

579
00:27:00,170 --> 00:26:57,910
UFOs are or even the possibility of life

580
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:00,180
where life elsewhere in the universe

581
00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:03,370
yeah yeah no that's absolutely the case

582
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:07,860
I mean you have to realize that that

583
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:13,260
it there that no matter whether or not

584
00:27:21,020 --> 00:27:17,610
you think that these sightings reflect a

585
00:27:24,289 --> 00:27:21,030
reality of extraterrestrial visitors or

586
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:24,299
not no matter where one is on the

587
00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:26,730
spectrum on those kinds of issues at the

588
00:27:31,010 --> 00:27:28,470
range of different views that are out

589
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:31,020
there on the subject the phenomenon

590
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:34,710
raises all sorts of questions for us at

591
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:36,690
the very start right as you sort of are

592
00:27:40,730 --> 00:27:38,690
hinting at right the the whole issue of

593
00:27:42,770 --> 00:27:40,740
extraterrestrial intelligent

594
00:27:47,299 --> 00:27:42,780
civilizations raises all of these

595
00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:47,309
questions about who we are how unique we

596
00:27:54,169 --> 00:27:50,190
are are we terribly unique how does

597
00:27:57,230 --> 00:27:54,179
evolution work elsewhere right it raises

598
00:27:59,900 --> 00:27:57,240
questions about communication how do we

599
00:28:03,890 --> 00:27:59,910
communicate with with beings from

600
00:28:06,919 --> 00:28:03,900
another world when we don't even have

601
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:06,929
any clear sense of what they are how

602
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:11,010
they operate what they look like in many

603
00:28:17,330 --> 00:28:13,730
cases right so so that you you you and

604
00:28:19,220 --> 00:28:17,340
end up having to also however reflect

605
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,230
back on yourself and this is something

606
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:20,880
that comes from a lot of my research

607
00:28:27,260 --> 00:28:22,530
that I've done over the years on other

608
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:27,270
subjects and that is the idea that

609
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:29,370
oftentimes when we deal with a

610
00:28:33,980 --> 00:28:31,650
phenomenon like we're dealing with here

611
00:28:36,980 --> 00:28:33,990
that is something that in which there's

612
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:36,990
a great deal of unclarity there's a

613
00:28:44,030 --> 00:28:40,080
great deal here that is fuzzy very very

614
00:28:47,150 --> 00:28:44,040
fuzzy what we are going to invariably do

615
00:28:50,390 --> 00:28:47,160
is to project a lot of ourselves into

616
00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:50,400
that phenomenon it's inevitable it's

617
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:52,380
inevitable I don't see that as a

618
00:28:57,020 --> 00:28:54,809
critical bad thing it just simply is the

619
00:29:01,220 --> 00:28:57,030
reality of what we do as human beings

620
00:29:03,049 --> 00:29:01,230
and so in that sense right the UFO and

621
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,059
alien contact phenomenon is in many ways

622
00:29:08,270 --> 00:29:05,520
a kind of a Rorschach test for all of us

623
00:29:11,060 --> 00:29:08,280
and for us as a community of human

624
00:29:12,860 --> 00:29:11,070
beings right absolutely yeah I mean when

625
00:29:14,659 --> 00:29:12,870
you become so deeply embedded in

626
00:29:16,909 --> 00:29:14,669
something it's going to ultimately

627
00:29:19,580 --> 00:29:16,919
affect your life and influence your work

628
00:29:20,950 --> 00:29:19,590
moving forward I would assume yeah

629
00:29:22,690 --> 00:29:20,960
exactly

630
00:29:24,399 --> 00:29:22,700
and and that's you know that's another

631
00:29:26,980 --> 00:29:24,409
thing that I would I would point out

632
00:29:30,299 --> 00:29:26,990
about this connection with SETI there's

633
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:30,309
a I recently read a a really interesting

634
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:33,200
dis unpublished dissertation by a fellow

635
00:29:37,539 --> 00:29:36,110
by the name of Arthur item I want to

636
00:29:40,870 --> 00:29:37,549
pronounce his name right Arthur Fricka

637
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:40,880
or Arthur Fricke who wrote this in the

638
00:29:46,289 --> 00:29:43,279
early 2000s at Rensselaer Polytechnic

639
00:29:48,639 --> 00:29:46,299
Institute it's a really fascinating

640
00:29:50,529 --> 00:29:48,649
dissertation which he looks at SETI but

641
00:29:53,350 --> 00:29:50,539
looked at it any connection also with

642
00:29:57,639 --> 00:29:53,360
ufology and he made a really interesting

643
00:29:59,620 --> 00:29:57,649
point that is so obvious it was one of

644
00:30:02,769 --> 00:29:59,630
those dumb moments I thought to myself

645
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:02,779
like wow how come I never really thought

646
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:05,570
about that and that is he said about

647
00:30:13,210 --> 00:30:08,799
SETI was that SETI

648
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:13,220
major issue and major sort of challenge

649
00:30:19,570 --> 00:30:16,010
was also the mate of the very nature of

650
00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:19,580
its project which was that SETI for all

651
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:21,289
the time that it's existed since the

652
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:22,850
1960s right

653
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:26,510
it is never once ever had any positive

654
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:29,570
result right so far they've got nothing

655
00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:33,770
so when SETI tries to raise money when

656
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:37,190
SETI tries to engage the public and the

657
00:30:42,340 --> 00:30:39,890
value of what they're doing they

658
00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:42,350
actually have nothing to show for it

659
00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:44,270
and that wasn't a credit he didn't mean

660
00:30:49,090 --> 00:30:45,830
it critically he said but what this does

661
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:49,100
is this sets up a dynamic for SETI SETI

662
00:30:55,870 --> 00:30:52,370
must now generate enthusiasm for

663
00:30:59,680 --> 00:30:55,880
something for which it can offer no real

664
00:31:01,570 --> 00:30:59,690
concrete evidence of the very of the

665
00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:01,580
very thing that legitimates the project

666
00:31:06,220 --> 00:31:04,070
itself the apology has had a somewhat

667
00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:06,230
similar problem over the years right in

668
00:31:11,289 --> 00:31:08,390
essence no concrete you know that you

669
00:31:13,269 --> 00:31:11,299
know the classic one right why doesn't a

670
00:31:15,970 --> 00:31:13,279
UFO just plop down on the white house

671
00:31:19,210 --> 00:31:15,980
alone so that to me is kind of

672
00:31:22,269 --> 00:31:19,220
intriguing yeah yeah absolutely well I

673
00:31:25,419 --> 00:31:22,279
mean in terms of that I want to sort of

674
00:31:28,620 --> 00:31:25,429
dive integrate this idea of the mistrust

675
00:31:30,970 --> 00:31:28,630
as you you've written about in the past

676
00:31:33,039 --> 00:31:30,980
between you know the scientific

677
00:31:34,930 --> 00:31:33,049
community and what we can I guess

678
00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:34,940
consider UFO

679
00:31:40,570 --> 00:31:38,300
Searchers or possibly investigators you

680
00:31:43,870 --> 00:31:40,580
wrote an entire paper on this topic of

681
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:43,880
when and how this mistrust really began

682
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:48,320
and why what why that happened and where

683
00:31:55,090 --> 00:31:51,440
that takes us in furthering you know UFO

684
00:31:58,690 --> 00:31:55,100
research well yeah and and so this I

685
00:32:02,170 --> 00:31:58,700
became very curious about looking at the

686
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:02,180
kind of I think one has to say it's been

687
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:07,460
historically fairly rampant and if we

688
00:32:12,940 --> 00:32:10,790
sort of divide up the what I would it

689
00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:12,950
can be difficult sometimes put these

690
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:15,560
things in meat little boxes but ufology

691
00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:18,260
on the one hand and academic science on

692
00:32:21,220 --> 00:32:19,670
the other that's not to say there aren't

693
00:32:25,510 --> 00:32:21,230
you follow Jews who are themselves

694
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:25,520
academic scientists but what I'm saying

695
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:28,310
is I'm talking about the ufology

696
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:31,430
activity that done outside of the halls

697
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:34,310
and institutions of academia and and

698
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:35,690
there's there has been this sort of

699
00:32:41,470 --> 00:32:37,910
mutual mistrust in for me as a historian

700
00:32:44,140 --> 00:32:41,480
we don't take anything for granted

701
00:32:47,260 --> 00:32:44,150
nothing is taken for granted and what we

702
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:47,270
do is we tend to our kind of assumption

703
00:32:54,130 --> 00:32:50,930
is that when something when there's a

704
00:32:57,610 --> 00:32:54,140
set of relationships or an institution

705
00:32:59,380 --> 00:32:57,620
that's out there that we don't just

706
00:33:01,840 --> 00:32:59,390
simply accept it as a given but rather

707
00:33:03,790 --> 00:33:01,850
look at how it was made how it was

708
00:33:05,290 --> 00:33:03,800
creating what is the process and that's

709
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:05,300
what I was interested in what is the

710
00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:09,250
process by which mistrust was sown in

711
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:11,480
different communities and I think the

712
00:33:17,710 --> 00:33:15,170
thing that that struck me was to say was

713
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:17,720
to see that in a sense that mistrust

714
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:21,440
between the academic adam ii right the

715
00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:23,510
ivory tower and on the other hand

716
00:33:30,610 --> 00:33:27,910
ufology cruza has come about I think a

717
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:30,620
it's come about through a set of

718
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:34,930
processes so for starters it came about

719
00:33:40,930 --> 00:33:38,090
over the course of the 1940s 1950s

720
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:40,940
really generated by what was it really

721
00:33:46,030 --> 00:33:42,770
the initial distrust and that was did

722
00:33:47,950 --> 00:33:46,040
the distrust of the air force in the

723
00:33:48,700 --> 00:33:47,960
case of the United States of a defense

724
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:48,710
minister

725
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:51,200
in the case of the United Kingdom but

726
00:33:59,380 --> 00:33:55,450
the ways in which information about UFOs

727
00:34:03,130 --> 00:33:59,390
was strictly guarded need-to-know basis

728
00:34:06,549 --> 00:34:03,140
right kept from the public as part of

729
00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:06,559
concerns about national security and so

730
00:34:11,490 --> 00:34:09,169
these military institutions that dealt

731
00:34:13,060 --> 00:34:11,500
with information about UFOs as

732
00:34:15,220 --> 00:34:13,070
intelligence right

733
00:34:17,859 --> 00:34:15,230
naturally folded into their concerns

734
00:34:19,810 --> 00:34:17,869
about keeping information classified

735
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,820
rather than spreading that information

736
00:34:24,849 --> 00:34:21,679
for and that is when you look at the

737
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:24,859
initial sort of issue of mistrust that's

738
00:34:28,990 --> 00:34:26,570
what it really centered upon for many

739
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:29,000
ufologists was government officials and

740
00:34:34,930 --> 00:34:32,690
authorities over time as scientists

741
00:34:36,970 --> 00:34:34,940
began to speak out and speak against

742
00:34:39,970 --> 00:34:36,980
this and to also shut out

743
00:34:42,869 --> 00:34:39,980
ufology from the halls of the academy i

744
00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:42,879
think that's when you start to see this

745
00:34:49,570 --> 00:34:45,710
distrust start to play I think somewhat

746
00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:49,580
of a greater role in the relations

747
00:34:55,119 --> 00:34:52,550
between these two sets of communities if

748
00:34:56,980 --> 00:34:55,129
you will and that's the thing that this

749
00:35:00,280 --> 00:34:56,990
is the second thing would be part is

750
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:00,290
that that that that mistrust I think I

751
00:35:08,109 --> 00:35:03,910
conclude was not really the result of

752
00:35:10,030 --> 00:35:08,119
really ufologist distrust in science I

753
00:35:14,109 --> 00:35:10,040
don't think that's it I don't think the

754
00:35:18,839 --> 00:35:14,119
evidence shows that at all but rather

755
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:18,849
this emerged because in a sense the

756
00:35:24,070 --> 00:35:21,650
academics and the ufologists have

757
00:35:26,770 --> 00:35:24,080
historically in a sense talk past one

758
00:35:30,130 --> 00:35:26,780
another that their research projects

759
00:35:32,950 --> 00:35:30,140
have led them in different directions so

760
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:32,960
that it's based on in to some extent

761
00:35:40,420 --> 00:35:35,560
some misunderstandings and this mutual

762
00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:40,430
misunderstandings but it's also it also

763
00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:43,190
reflects the fact that and I think this

764
00:35:47,109 --> 00:35:44,630
is the interesting thing is that what I

765
00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:47,119
started to discover is something that

766
00:35:51,940 --> 00:35:50,089
that colleagues of mine and sociology of

767
00:35:53,710 --> 00:35:51,950
science have also discovered about other

768
00:35:56,050 --> 00:35:53,720
communities where there's a fair amount

769
00:36:00,099 --> 00:35:56,060
of of safe skepticism or downright

770
00:36:02,620 --> 00:36:00,109
cynicism about it about a academia is

771
00:36:05,890 --> 00:36:02,630
that that that that is rude

772
00:36:08,469 --> 00:36:05,900
unless a skepticism or a distrust of

773
00:36:11,890 --> 00:36:08,479
science on the part of ufology then a

774
00:36:13,150 --> 00:36:11,900
distrust of scientists right that's that

775
00:36:15,670 --> 00:36:13,160
that's the problem

776
00:36:20,259 --> 00:36:15,680
that they believe they historically have

777
00:36:23,529 --> 00:36:20,269
believed scientists are elitist or

778
00:36:25,769 --> 00:36:23,539
scientists are people who are guarding

779
00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:25,779
their privileged or scientists are

780
00:36:32,019 --> 00:36:29,470
closed-minded that kind of stuff but the

781
00:36:35,769 --> 00:36:32,029
assumption that many people in academia

782
00:36:38,019 --> 00:36:35,779
have that people who are interested in

783
00:36:41,769 --> 00:36:38,029
UFOs or people who have worked in

784
00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:41,779
ufology are anti science that I don't

785
00:36:45,219 --> 00:36:43,609
think there's a lot of evidence for I

786
00:36:47,469 --> 00:36:45,229
think it's just the opposite and I don't

787
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:47,479
know what your experience is but I find

788
00:36:52,299 --> 00:36:49,249
that most people interested in ufology

789
00:36:54,940 --> 00:36:52,309
are really quite interested in science

790
00:36:57,969 --> 00:36:54,950
oh absolutely I mean you look at the

791
00:37:00,460 --> 00:36:57,979
civilian research organizations and that

792
00:37:01,989 --> 00:37:00,470
is literally their mission their mantra

793
00:37:05,410 --> 00:37:01,999
is to look at this topic from a

794
00:37:08,229 --> 00:37:05,420
scientific viewpoint and to try to find

795
00:37:11,650 --> 00:37:08,239
some sort of repeatable evidence to

796
00:37:13,450 --> 00:37:11,660
bring forward yeah I completely agree on

797
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:13,460
that and then you have psychologists

798
00:37:17,289 --> 00:37:15,289
looking at it from their angle and said

799
00:37:19,930 --> 00:37:17,299
you know we could go in circles on that

800
00:37:23,009 --> 00:37:19,940
whole aspect but yeah I don't see a

801
00:37:28,420 --> 00:37:23,019
distrust between the scientists and and

802
00:37:32,019 --> 00:37:28,430
ufologists as it were I do see a a lack

803
00:37:34,509 --> 00:37:32,029
of acknowledgement from the academic

804
00:37:37,450 --> 00:37:34,519
level at some points but that is where

805
00:37:40,209 --> 00:37:37,460
someone like you comes in and says there

806
00:37:43,329 --> 00:37:40,219
is a place for this especially in your

807
00:37:45,069 --> 00:37:43,339
field of history and if you don't mind

808
00:37:47,589 --> 00:37:45,079
Greg I'd love to bring up this piece

809
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:47,599
that you you wrote for the Queen Mary

810
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,650
Center for the history of emotions

811
00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:53,839
called UFOs and historians I want to

812
00:38:00,670 --> 00:37:58,130
talk about how as a historian you can

813
00:38:03,670 --> 00:38:00,680
bring something to the UFO topic and

814
00:38:05,739 --> 00:38:03,680
have it been taken seriously could you

815
00:38:10,059 --> 00:38:05,749
run us through what you cover in this

816
00:38:12,430 --> 00:38:10,069
piece yeah so what I wanted to write

817
00:38:15,249 --> 00:38:12,440
about was and so to speak to is

818
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:15,259
something that is excited that might be

819
00:38:18,819 --> 00:38:16,160
the most cure

820
00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:18,829
Arius thing of all in the UFO phenomenon

821
00:38:27,730 --> 00:38:24,230
and it's not a particularly it's not

822
00:38:30,250 --> 00:38:27,740
anything's not a photograph it was when

823
00:38:34,359 --> 00:38:30,260
I started to embark on this project it

824
00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:34,369
was the realization that the last and

825
00:38:40,210 --> 00:38:37,910
only time an academic historian somebody

826
00:38:42,849 --> 00:38:40,220
trained and in history and working at a

827
00:38:44,799 --> 00:38:42,859
university as a historian the last and

828
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:44,809
only time anybody has written a book on

829
00:38:50,289 --> 00:38:47,650
this subject in English was in 1975

830
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:50,299
David Jacobs who I know who's going to

831
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:52,690
be familiar to a lot of your listeners

832
00:38:57,460 --> 00:38:55,609
David Jacobs book which is standing

833
00:39:00,640 --> 00:38:57,470
right here on my desk in front of me the

834
00:39:02,380 --> 00:39:00,650
UFO controversy in America right very

835
00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:02,390
good book still stands the test of time

836
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:05,089
it's a really quite a good book on the

837
00:39:14,740 --> 00:39:10,010
subject really remarkable and and then

838
00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:14,750
there's silence that to me was

839
00:39:20,769 --> 00:39:17,720
interesting and remains interesting

840
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:20,779
because for me sort of the question they

841
00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:23,450
sort of talk about this is is it's

842
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:24,200
peculiar

843
00:39:33,430 --> 00:39:30,890
because the you the world of UFOs as I

844
00:39:35,799 --> 00:39:33,440
was calling it earlier the UFO and alien

845
00:39:40,029 --> 00:39:35,809
contact phenomenon since world war ii

846
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:40,039
has been a major preoccupation major

847
00:39:46,930 --> 00:39:44,270
endeavor for decades historians don't

848
00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:46,940
tend to neglect something that big yeah

849
00:39:53,859 --> 00:39:50,710
right how I can't imagine it'd be like

850
00:39:55,660 --> 00:39:53,869
neglecting pop music right you you don't

851
00:39:57,279 --> 00:39:55,670
say I'm not going to study pop music

852
00:39:59,620 --> 00:39:57,289
we're not interested you say but it's a

853
00:40:02,529 --> 00:39:59,630
hugely important part right of the

854
00:40:04,539 --> 00:40:02,539
post-war world so that's kind of odd but

855
00:40:07,930 --> 00:40:04,549
then it would also doubly made it makes

856
00:40:10,029 --> 00:40:07,940
it in trained to me is that there are

857
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:10,039
all of these other communities of

858
00:40:15,220 --> 00:40:11,839
scholars as I was just mentioning before

859
00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:15,230
who in fact have studied this the

860
00:40:21,660 --> 00:40:17,900
folklorists the people who work in

861
00:40:23,769 --> 00:40:21,670
literary studies religious scholars

862
00:40:25,809 --> 00:40:23,779
sociologists social psychologists

863
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:25,819
they've all looked at this phenomenon

864
00:40:33,820 --> 00:40:29,690
they've all explored it so it sort of

865
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:33,830
for me it sort of led me to make really

866
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:36,170
two kinds of observations one was to say

867
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:38,090
what I think is some of the things that

868
00:40:42,970 --> 00:40:40,310
we can do as historians and one must

869
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:42,980
again raise this question why are the

870
00:40:49,390 --> 00:40:45,440
historians so silent why are we why is

871
00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:49,400
my tribe so strangely silent on this

872
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:52,070
subject when when so many other people

873
00:40:56,740 --> 00:40:54,130
in the social sciences and Humanities

874
00:40:59,800 --> 00:40:56,750
aren't and so that's kind of where I

875
00:41:02,440 --> 00:40:59,810
went with this in that regard it's

876
00:41:04,870 --> 00:41:02,450
really interesting why I love to UM I'll

877
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:04,880
definitely link the listeners to those

878
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:07,490
examples that you found it's fascinating

879
00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:10,130
it really is well you brought up you

880
00:41:15,730 --> 00:41:13,390
know the fact great no certain case or

881
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:15,740
you know incident that occurred but I do

882
00:41:22,990 --> 00:41:19,130
kind of want to touch on that in your

883
00:41:25,630 --> 00:41:23,000
research what are there any cases you've

884
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:25,640
turned to where it really stuck out to

885
00:41:30,970 --> 00:41:28,850
you that there is a obvious anomalous

886
00:41:32,860 --> 00:41:30,980
phenomenon happening you know there's

887
00:41:34,510 --> 00:41:32,870
there are a million answers to every go

888
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:34,520
out there okay so let's be honest but

889
00:41:40,450 --> 00:41:37,610
what do you turn to that it really makes

890
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:40,460
you personally feel wow there is

891
00:41:46,210 --> 00:41:43,280
something to this and it possibly may

892
00:41:51,010 --> 00:41:46,220
not be from here boy that's a good

893
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:51,020
question I can't I can't say there's any

894
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:54,530
particular individual case that makes me

895
00:42:01,660 --> 00:41:57,890
feel that way I think more the case I

896
00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:01,670
think would I will see and and as you

897
00:42:06,670 --> 00:42:04,250
can imagine and you know anybody who is

898
00:42:08,590 --> 00:42:06,680
interested in ufology does this all the

899
00:42:10,060 --> 00:42:08,600
time so I'm not doing anything that you

900
00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:10,070
follow just haven't been doing for

901
00:42:17,110 --> 00:42:12,560
decades but you know I go through so so

902
00:42:19,810 --> 00:42:17,120
many cases as I read and I comb over the

903
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:19,820
archives and look at cases and in some

904
00:42:25,810 --> 00:42:22,810
ways from me it's these really really

905
00:42:28,660 --> 00:42:25,820
innocuous things these these things that

906
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:28,670
I will read that are from you know some

907
00:42:37,770 --> 00:42:34,370
small newsletter in Ohio in 1953 or you

908
00:42:42,330 --> 00:42:37,780
know or something I read in a in a in a

909
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:42,340
some sort of a periodical from the 1960s

910
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:46,450
from the France or Sweden right and it

911
00:42:51,780 --> 00:42:49,210
says just a small little piece sometimes

912
00:42:55,830 --> 00:42:51,790
those to me are in fact kind of the most

913
00:42:57,810 --> 00:42:55,840
engaging for me so but but the other

914
00:43:02,000 --> 00:42:57,820
part of it I would say it's probably

915
00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:02,010
when you get this kind of sense of the

916
00:43:08,570 --> 00:43:05,950
the cumulative effect of hearing so many

917
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:08,580
stories I think that's when you you

918
00:43:16,620 --> 00:43:11,890
certainly sit there and and have to say

919
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:16,630
that it's it's difficult to say that

920
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:20,560
some one explanation right is going to

921
00:43:24,420 --> 00:43:22,240
explain this you know you follow just

922
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:24,430
about for a long time right now I'm

923
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:26,650
trying to criticize fill class for his

924
00:43:32,780 --> 00:43:29,680
his um attachment to the ball lightning

925
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:32,790
thesis there's no question that that one

926
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:35,920
explanation doesn't doesn't do it for

927
00:43:40,050 --> 00:43:38,050
these kinds of things I I do think what

928
00:43:43,290 --> 00:43:40,060
I would say is this what I find

929
00:43:47,340 --> 00:43:43,300
interesting as a historian is I'm

930
00:43:49,590 --> 00:43:47,350
interested in what people other people

931
00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:49,600
what people different times have found

932
00:43:55,470 --> 00:43:52,300
compelling so that to me is what's kind

933
00:43:59,180 --> 00:43:55,480
of interesting in that regard right so

934
00:44:02,130 --> 00:43:59,190
when I read I'm often less interested in

935
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:02,140
we're not at all interested to be honest

936
00:44:07,620 --> 00:44:05,890
in trying to persuade myself one way or

937
00:44:10,170 --> 00:44:07,630
the other about the origins of these

938
00:44:14,070 --> 00:44:10,180
things or what was somebody seen in many

939
00:44:17,010 --> 00:44:14,080
ways that to me is is not centrally

940
00:44:20,100 --> 00:44:17,020
important what's important for me is to

941
00:44:22,290 --> 00:44:20,110
unpack what it is if I'm reading a

942
00:44:24,210 --> 00:44:22,300
particular ufologists from a particular

943
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:24,220
particular period of time I'm interested

944
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:26,410
in knowing what he or she found

945
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:29,290
particularly compelling what in that

946
00:44:34,260 --> 00:44:31,510
particular case did they find compelling

947
00:44:36,330 --> 00:44:34,270
in one form or another that to me is

948
00:44:38,130 --> 00:44:36,340
very very interesting and so kind of

949
00:44:40,770 --> 00:44:38,140
that's that's in the end what I would I

950
00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:40,780
really track is are those kinds of

951
00:44:46,650 --> 00:44:43,740
things I'm not kind of I'm not trying to

952
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:46,660
divert away from your question but I

953
00:44:51,150 --> 00:44:48,640
guess it has to do probably with the

954
00:44:53,790 --> 00:44:51,160
mindset in which I go in and I read this

955
00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:53,800
stuff right at Tommy is that I think of

956
00:44:59,609 --> 00:44:56,230
it in these terms and so that is what

957
00:45:00,840 --> 00:44:59,619
constantly constantly on my mind yeah

958
00:45:03,210 --> 00:45:00,850
and like you mentioned just the

959
00:45:05,970 --> 00:45:03,220
profundity of reports and cases out

960
00:45:08,220 --> 00:45:05,980
there can really lead one to not not

961
00:45:11,490 --> 00:45:08,230
make a determination or find a source

962
00:45:13,260 --> 00:45:11,500
but to you know wonder what could be out

963
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:13,270
there and or what did what it all means

964
00:45:17,730 --> 00:45:15,210
well in terms of you know those

965
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:17,740
academics you mentioned David Jacobs for

966
00:45:22,170 --> 00:45:20,050
one highly controversial when he worked

967
00:45:24,540 --> 00:45:22,180
at Temple I know that he was given some

968
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:24,550
flack for the work he'd done what do you

969
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:26,170
make Greg of this whole idea of the

970
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:28,990
ridicule factor with in ufology and in

971
00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:30,730
terms of the academic world I would say

972
00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:35,230
how do we move past that now so the

973
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:37,030
ridicule thing is something I have

974
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:40,000
increasingly become quite fascinated

975
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:43,330
with and and I've started to work

976
00:45:48,180 --> 00:45:45,280
through some of my ideas about it

977
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:48,190
because it's another one of these things

978
00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:50,290
that is so ubiquitous

979
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:52,990
in the history of the UFO and alien

980
00:45:58,590 --> 00:45:56,410
contact phenomena that that nobody has

981
00:46:00,960 --> 00:45:58,600
ever thought I I think taking it

982
00:46:03,150 --> 00:46:00,970
seriously to consider what role does it

983
00:46:04,859 --> 00:46:03,160
play in all of these things I mean yes

984
00:46:07,020 --> 00:46:04,869
people talk about the fact well of

985
00:46:11,330 --> 00:46:07,030
course it means I kept quiet about this

986
00:46:14,340 --> 00:46:11,340
or it means you know you do have the

987
00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:14,350
recent article relatively recent article

988
00:46:16,980 --> 00:46:15,700
glad I'm blanking on their name but the

989
00:46:19,830 --> 00:46:16,990
two political scientists who have

990
00:46:23,580 --> 00:46:19,840
written about the UFO taboo and have

991
00:46:29,940 --> 00:46:23,590
talked about it in that way but but to

992
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:29,950
me I'm really interested in the function

993
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:33,490
of what role ridicule plays in helping

994
00:46:40,380 --> 00:46:37,570
to shape how you follow G operates how

995
00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:40,390
people who are engaged in UFO who have

996
00:46:44,609 --> 00:46:42,609
UFO and alien contact interests engage

997
00:46:46,710 --> 00:46:44,619
with one another engage with the outside

998
00:46:48,599 --> 00:46:46,720
world that to me is very important stuff

999
00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:48,609
it's a it's a social historical

1000
00:46:53,609 --> 00:46:51,250
phenomenon that needs to be understood

1001
00:46:59,190 --> 00:46:53,619
so in part I would sit there and I would

1002
00:47:01,590 --> 00:46:59,200
say to some extent ridicule is I think

1003
00:47:03,870 --> 00:47:01,600
in all likelihood something that is

1004
00:47:05,970 --> 00:47:03,880
never going to be eliminated from this

1005
00:47:09,150 --> 00:47:05,980
and that is because this is what people

1006
00:47:09,750 --> 00:47:09,160
do who have you know really different

1007
00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:09,760
opinions

1008
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:12,190
about any subject is ridic oh I mean

1009
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:14,530
just think about one's political views

1010
00:47:18,210 --> 00:47:16,450
and one's relatives who don't agree with

1011
00:47:20,910 --> 00:47:18,220
you about your politics and you know

1012
00:47:26,100 --> 00:47:20,920
right away that ridicule will always be

1013
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:26,110
with us um I think in in academia I

1014
00:47:31,770 --> 00:47:29,710
think one of the ways we need to do and

1015
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:31,780
I do this quite a bit in my own work

1016
00:47:37,260 --> 00:47:33,850
because one of the things I do in fact

1017
00:47:40,290 --> 00:47:37,270
do is is try to persuade colleagues to

1018
00:47:42,450 --> 00:47:40,300
consider this thing and this phenomenon

1019
00:47:45,690 --> 00:47:42,460
and the people engaged in the work of

1020
00:47:49,230 --> 00:47:45,700
UFO research um to take them seriously

1021
00:47:51,630 --> 00:47:49,240
to take this as a serious engagement

1022
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:51,640
with knowledge in a way that is on par

1023
00:47:56,310 --> 00:47:53,410
with other things it's not to say you

1024
00:47:56,940 --> 00:47:56,320
have to say you agree with it or or even

1025
00:47:58,980 --> 00:47:56,950
like it

1026
00:48:01,590 --> 00:47:58,990
but it is to sit there and acknowledge

1027
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:01,600
that this is another human endeavor to

1028
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:05,740
know the world around us and that to me

1029
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:09,490
is to value it on that on that basis so

1030
00:48:15,210 --> 00:48:12,400
I think one of the ways you do that is

1031
00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:15,220
to do the work I'm doing it is to have

1032
00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:17,230
these kinds of engagements engagements

1033
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:19,390
like you and I have and these kinds of

1034
00:48:24,330 --> 00:48:22,210
ways of talking with one another to get

1035
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:24,340
a better appreciation of what we're all

1036
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:27,730
up to so that maybe we can avoid some of

1037
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:30,250
the misunderstandings we had the other

1038
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:33,370
thing that I find really interesting and

1039
00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:37,330
I'm sort of thinking through is to

1040
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:39,910
understand one other thing and that is

1041
00:48:46,740 --> 00:48:42,310
to really appreciate that ridicule

1042
00:48:49,890 --> 00:48:46,750
doesn't just exist outside of of ufology

1043
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:49,900
right from the outside from academics or

1044
00:48:54,420 --> 00:48:51,850
laypeople who think this is all nonsense

1045
00:48:58,500 --> 00:48:54,430
it exists right there within you

1046
00:49:02,010 --> 00:48:58,510
right I mean one of the things that has

1047
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:02,020
caught my eye is dating back from almost

1048
00:49:06,090 --> 00:49:04,720
the very beginning you follow just after

1049
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:06,100
ufologist and you've probably had this

1050
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:08,110
experience too if you talk to people

1051
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:10,810
especially privately right virtually

1052
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:13,810
every ufologist will say or UFO

1053
00:49:18,720 --> 00:49:16,540
researcher will sit there and they will

1054
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:18,730
tell you about the stuff they work on

1055
00:49:22,860 --> 00:49:20,530
within the people who they read them and

1056
00:49:24,540 --> 00:49:22,870
then they will say something like

1057
00:49:27,330 --> 00:49:24,550
now you know I don't have a lot in

1058
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:27,340
common with those nut jobs or those

1059
00:49:34,070 --> 00:49:32,050
crackpots right so many folks folks in

1060
00:49:35,820 --> 00:49:34,080
the UFO research community themselves

1061
00:49:38,220 --> 00:49:35,830
right yes

1062
00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:38,230
asked aspersions on others ridicule

1063
00:49:44,550 --> 00:49:40,630
other people within that community and

1064
00:49:47,340 --> 00:49:44,560
that to me is is also interesting as a

1065
00:49:50,970 --> 00:49:47,350
historical phenomenon about what role

1066
00:49:53,430 --> 00:49:50,980
does that play in helping to shape some

1067
00:49:56,130 --> 00:49:53,440
of the conflicts and the divisions right

1068
00:49:59,670 --> 00:49:56,140
that have that have been a chronic part

1069
00:50:01,710 --> 00:49:59,680
of UFL ufology over the decades right

1070
00:50:04,650 --> 00:50:01,720
that's that's one of those things that

1071
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:04,660
helps to in fact create that fractious

1072
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:07,680
environment that at different times has

1073
00:50:14,430 --> 00:50:11,680
certainly hurt the public image of UFO

1074
00:50:16,290 --> 00:50:14,440
research over the years so that to me is

1075
00:50:19,890 --> 00:50:16,300
also intriguing this the role of

1076
00:50:22,590 --> 00:50:19,900
ridicule in that regard yes we are worst

1077
00:50:25,710 --> 00:50:22,600
enemies at times and I am sure that goes

1078
00:50:28,890 --> 00:50:25,720
for any scientific field or endeavor

1079
00:50:31,590 --> 00:50:28,900
even within academia there's always this

1080
00:50:34,590 --> 00:50:31,600
internal fighting or internal debate

1081
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:34,600
going on which can be healthy at times I

1082
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:36,490
mean as long as it's a civil discourse

1083
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:39,880
but I think what you really hit on Gregg

1084
00:50:45,930 --> 00:50:43,450
is that word consideration it's not you

1085
00:50:48,810 --> 00:50:45,940
know persuading someone to some absolute

1086
00:50:50,130 --> 00:50:48,820
truth that you have the answer and if

1087
00:50:52,460 --> 00:50:50,140
you don't agree with me you're just

1088
00:50:55,770 --> 00:50:52,470
wrong you're plain wrong it's

1089
00:50:58,050 --> 00:50:55,780
considering the possibility let's say of

1090
00:51:00,420 --> 00:50:58,060
the UFO phenomenon being real and

1091
00:51:03,540 --> 00:51:00,430
possibly being of extraterrestrial in

1092
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:03,550
origin or not and just understanding

1093
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:05,770
that and asking questions I think that's

1094
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:08,170
key and where that ridicule starts to

1095
00:51:11,370 --> 00:51:09,970
decay and like you said I don't think

1096
00:51:13,470 --> 00:51:11,380
it'll ever go away completely

1097
00:51:15,390 --> 00:51:13,480
we will never all be on the same page

1098
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:15,400
especially when it comes to this topic

1099
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:17,650
but I think you you hit it on the head

1100
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:20,530
man considering the possibility and

1101
00:51:26,370 --> 00:51:22,930
opening people's eyes and just having a

1102
00:51:30,330 --> 00:51:26,380
conversation yeah exactly I mean I for

1103
00:51:31,410 --> 00:51:30,340
me for me I see this all you know gets

1104
00:51:34,110 --> 00:51:31,420
back to what we were talking about

1105
00:51:36,450 --> 00:51:34,120
earlier about how the whole world of

1106
00:51:38,940 --> 00:51:36,460
UFOs touches on some

1107
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:38,950
many different aspects of how we

1108
00:51:45,359 --> 00:51:41,410
understand ourselves in the world around

1109
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:45,369
us if one understands all of us involved

1110
00:51:50,099 --> 00:51:47,530
whatever it is and we could talk about

1111
00:51:51,810 --> 00:51:50,109
it you know not even just science and

1112
00:51:55,230 --> 00:51:51,820
UFOs we could talk about any almost any

1113
00:51:57,839 --> 00:51:55,240
subject it is - you know I know people

1114
00:52:00,089 --> 00:51:57,849
for instance I mean I love sports I love

1115
00:52:01,950 --> 00:52:00,099
watching that you know sports are

1116
00:52:04,589 --> 00:52:01,960
rooting for my teams I know people who

1117
00:52:06,810 --> 00:52:04,599
absolutely hate it absolutely hated it

1118
00:52:08,790 --> 00:52:06,820
and and don't get it and say I will

1119
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:08,800
never understand how a grown man could

1120
00:52:13,890 --> 00:52:10,810
sit there and shout as lungs out it is

1121
00:52:16,859 --> 00:52:13,900
hockey team winning or losing Ella but

1122
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:16,869
but it is to appreciate that to sit

1123
00:52:20,220 --> 00:52:18,790
there and say that is fair but it is to

1124
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:20,230
sit there and say well you know that

1125
00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:22,510
this is yet another one of these aspects

1126
00:52:27,630 --> 00:52:24,310
of what makes us human beings in our

1127
00:52:31,310 --> 00:52:27,640
cultural life right these institutions

1128
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:31,320
these endeavors of ours to enjoy

1129
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:34,810
ourselves to be curious about the world

1130
00:52:41,609 --> 00:52:38,410
to commune with others right there's all

1131
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:41,619
sorts of dimensions of these things that

1132
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:46,240
we're engaged in and so you know I'm not

1133
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:48,250
much of a gardener I don't crack that

1134
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:49,839
garden and all but I know there are

1135
00:52:53,220 --> 00:52:51,550
people who do it and they can tell me

1136
00:52:55,710 --> 00:52:53,230
all about why they love being out in

1137
00:52:58,109 --> 00:52:55,720
their garden all day so to me I'm

1138
00:53:00,839 --> 00:52:58,119
curious about that and I instead of

1139
00:53:03,060 --> 00:53:00,849
ridiculing the gardener for gardening

1140
00:53:06,030 --> 00:53:03,070
and not you know watching sports really

1141
00:53:08,490 --> 00:53:06,040
I think that same kind of mentality

1142
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:08,500
needs to be there that you put it right

1143
00:53:14,070 --> 00:53:11,050
it's about consideration but it's also

1144
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:14,080
to my mind it's about connecting what I

1145
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:17,410
would think all of us who are interested

1146
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:21,010
in studying things like UFOs or you or

1147
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:22,930
the history of ethology are interested

1148
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:24,609
in is that we're curious we're curious

1149
00:53:30,780 --> 00:53:27,250
people we want to know something more

1150
00:53:32,579 --> 00:53:30,790
about the world and we go into it not

1151
00:53:34,980 --> 00:53:32,589
entirely clear where this is going to

1152
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:34,990
take us that to me is something that

1153
00:53:39,660 --> 00:53:37,510
should be the foundation of

1154
00:53:42,210 --> 00:53:39,670
consideration doesn't mean it's the end

1155
00:53:45,599 --> 00:53:42,220
point we may in fact have completely

1156
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:45,609
disparate views in the end but if we if

1157
00:53:50,220 --> 00:53:47,410
we come back to that time and time again

1158
00:53:53,460 --> 00:53:50,230
revisit that in our conversations at

1159
00:53:56,070 --> 00:53:53,470
that to me is the key to what is a civil

1160
00:53:58,710 --> 00:53:56,080
as you put it a civil conversation a

1161
00:54:01,650 --> 00:53:58,720
civil discussion even if we vehemently

1162
00:54:04,890 --> 00:54:01,660
degree disagree when we reach our

1163
00:54:07,770 --> 00:54:04,900
conclusions yes very well put

1164
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:07,780
well Greg you're going to be having some

1165
00:54:12,990 --> 00:54:10,810
civil conversations in England soon in

1166
00:54:15,090 --> 00:54:13,000
my career yeah this is very exciting

1167
00:54:17,609 --> 00:54:15,100
when they heard about this I I do

1168
00:54:20,730 --> 00:54:17,619
receive your newsletter which will also

1169
00:54:21,690 --> 00:54:20,740
link to where are you where you heading

1170
00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:21,700
my friend what are you going to be

1171
00:54:27,060 --> 00:54:23,980
talking about in oh yeah I've got a

1172
00:54:28,980 --> 00:54:27,070
series of talks I'm giving in in London

1173
00:54:31,740 --> 00:54:28,990
I'm going to be actually doing an

1174
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:31,750
interview with some very fascinating

1175
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:37,090
folks at Berbick Univ University

1176
00:54:40,980 --> 00:54:38,710
University of London right anything

1177
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:40,990
we're not this local college london but

1178
00:54:45,420 --> 00:54:43,119
Berbick there's a project there called

1179
00:54:48,390 --> 00:54:45,430
the hidden persuaders project which is

1180
00:54:52,260 --> 00:54:48,400
engaged in has been doing research in

1181
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:52,270
the history of very various Cold War

1182
00:55:00,120 --> 00:54:57,570
efforts aimed at persuading people or or

1183
00:55:02,609 --> 00:55:00,130
moving people to do one thing or another

1184
00:55:05,460 --> 00:55:02,619
so they do everything from advertisement

1185
00:55:07,170 --> 00:55:05,470
to subliminal messaging hypnotism psy

1186
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:07,180
phenomenon they're looking at the

1187
00:55:11,099 --> 00:55:09,520
history of that during the Cold War and

1188
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:11,109
they're going to be interviewing me for

1189
00:55:20,040 --> 00:55:13,930
their website but I'm going to be giving

1190
00:55:22,980 --> 00:55:20,050
a number of different talks one is going

1191
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:22,990
to be at the yeah the Queen Pro

1192
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:25,570
sponsored by the Queen Mary Center for

1193
00:55:32,730 --> 00:55:29,290
the history of a Center for the history

1194
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:32,740
of emotions that looks at the history of

1195
00:55:41,310 --> 00:55:36,970
the UFO phenomenon through the kind of

1196
00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:41,320
prism of suspense and what I mean there

1197
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:44,460
is that I think for so long for the

1198
00:55:48,330 --> 00:55:46,480
folklore as I talk about all these

1199
00:55:51,060 --> 00:55:48,340
people have studied the U at the history

1200
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:51,070
of the UFO phenomenon what's what's

1201
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:53,170
dominated the scene has been this image

1202
00:55:59,070 --> 00:55:57,280
that that that the UFO the interest in

1203
00:56:01,830 --> 00:55:59,080
UFOs in the preoccupation with a

1204
00:56:03,930 --> 00:56:01,840
particularly in say the 1950s and 60s

1205
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:03,940
into the 70s was

1206
00:56:09,420 --> 00:56:06,570
really build around people who were

1207
00:56:13,380 --> 00:56:09,430
paranoid but it's built on a kind of a

1208
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:13,390
nervousness and anxiousness and fears of

1209
00:56:19,590 --> 00:56:17,440
the Cold War and anxieties and that

1210
00:56:22,530 --> 00:56:19,600
those anxieties then translated into

1211
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:22,540
conspiracy theories and men in black and

1212
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:25,090
all of that I don't I wouldn't say

1213
00:56:30,330 --> 00:56:28,090
that's entirely wrong but I would say

1214
00:56:33,690 --> 00:56:30,340
that is a very very incomplete picture

1215
00:56:35,580 --> 00:56:33,700
of both I think the Cold War but also an

1216
00:56:39,420 --> 00:56:35,590
incomplete picture of ufology

1217
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:39,430
right because not everyone in fact I

1218
00:56:44,490 --> 00:56:41,650
would argue that maybe most ufologists

1219
00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:44,500
have not been believers in conspiracy

1220
00:56:49,620 --> 00:56:46,900
theories and also don't sort of

1221
00:56:52,670 --> 00:56:49,630
emphasize these dark sides of things and

1222
00:56:55,290 --> 00:56:52,680
so my argument is that it misses the

1223
00:56:57,210 --> 00:56:55,300
reality that when you particularly look

1224
00:56:58,830 --> 00:56:57,220
at any given time but especially this

1225
00:57:01,080 --> 00:56:58,840
very period of time that people tend to

1226
00:57:03,830 --> 00:57:01,090
glom on to it was actually a period in

1227
00:57:09,690 --> 00:57:03,840
which people were outright you know

1228
00:57:12,450 --> 00:57:09,700
delighted in soon excited it found it

1229
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:12,460
exhilarating right that that UFOs were

1230
00:57:20,130 --> 00:57:16,330
out there that that the possibility that

1231
00:57:24,660 --> 00:57:20,140
these vehicles were being manned by

1232
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:24,670
aliens that a new dawn was a new age was

1233
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:25,210
dawning

1234
00:57:30,180 --> 00:57:28,330
these kinds of things are being missed

1235
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:30,190
and neglected in man so I began to think

1236
00:57:35,820 --> 00:57:33,490
more about how can we frame the the

1237
00:57:37,650 --> 00:57:35,830
historical sensibilities of the time

1238
00:57:39,870 --> 00:57:37,660
that helps shape this phenomenon in

1239
00:57:41,910 --> 00:57:39,880
those early years and that's when I

1240
00:57:44,550 --> 00:57:41,920
started to realize that the sentiment

1241
00:57:47,850 --> 00:57:44,560
that really dominated the Cold War but I

1242
00:57:50,820 --> 00:57:47,860
think also dominated particularly those

1243
00:57:53,310 --> 00:57:50,830
those early decades really I think all

1244
00:57:56,310 --> 00:57:53,320
the way up into the 80s in the history

1245
00:58:00,120 --> 00:57:56,320
of UFO research with less anxiety and

1246
00:58:03,690 --> 00:58:00,130
fear than suspense then and that sense

1247
00:58:06,690 --> 00:58:03,700
of what is going on what what are they

1248
00:58:08,220 --> 00:58:06,700
and I often tell people I came to that

1249
00:58:11,070 --> 00:58:08,230
idea when I was looking at UFO

1250
00:58:12,990 --> 00:58:11,080
photographs you know take a look at some

1251
00:58:16,260 --> 00:58:13,000
of your favorites you a flying saucer

1252
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:16,270
photographs from that age there they are

1253
00:58:20,970 --> 00:58:17,530
and they just sit

1254
00:58:23,490 --> 00:58:20,980
right they kind of there's frozen in

1255
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:23,500
time you may not know much about the

1256
00:58:29,250 --> 00:58:25,930
context of the photograph and it just

1257
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:29,260
seems to be begging for answers and

1258
00:58:36,330 --> 00:58:33,040
saying to you who am i what am i is this

1259
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:36,340
real is this is this is this a hoax is

1260
00:58:40,830 --> 00:58:38,710
this genuine if it's genuine isn't

1261
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:40,840
man-made like all of these questions

1262
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:45,760
that to me is the key to understanding I

1263
00:58:50,370 --> 00:58:48,610
think the the allure and the per though

1264
00:58:54,180 --> 00:58:50,380
the reason why so many people were

1265
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:54,190
fascinated with UFOs particularly in the

1266
00:58:58,550 --> 00:58:55,930
earliest decades say that first

1267
00:59:02,580 --> 00:58:58,560
generation of folks interested in UFOs

1268
00:59:04,890 --> 00:59:02,590
it was that sense of mystery attenti

1269
00:59:07,980 --> 00:59:04,900
where is this going how is this going to

1270
00:59:09,870 --> 00:59:07,990
end and that to me is what I want to

1271
00:59:12,170 --> 00:59:09,880
capture so that's one of the one of the

1272
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:12,180
talks I'm giving is going to be on that

1273
00:59:17,820 --> 00:59:15,970
doing another one also at another Center

1274
00:59:19,050 --> 00:59:17,830
at University of College of London this

1275
00:59:23,780 --> 00:59:19,060
is a Center for the history of

1276
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:23,790
psychological disciplines on what I call

1277
00:59:31,230 --> 00:59:28,690
looking at the history of how how alien

1278
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:31,240
contact became pathologized I'm putting

1279
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:34,690
it in other words how is it that I put

1280
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:38,410
it another way talk I start with looking

1281
00:59:44,340 --> 00:59:40,720
at John Mac the great figure of John Mac

1282
00:59:48,420 --> 00:59:44,350
of quartz innovator in abductee research

1283
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:48,430
and you know of course people have asked

1284
00:59:52,650 --> 00:59:50,290
subsequently within the psychiatric

1285
00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:52,660
community like you know why did he get

1286
00:59:56,910 --> 00:59:54,790
involved with these people how to be

1287
00:59:59,520 --> 00:59:56,920
become involved with these people and

1288
01:00:03,000 --> 00:59:59,530
why did he believe them then those are

1289
01:00:04,620 --> 01:00:03,010
all fair enough questions to ask to be

1290
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:04,630
sure and a lot of people dressed it I

1291
01:00:10,670 --> 01:00:07,510
have kind of flipped it around my

1292
01:00:15,390 --> 01:00:10,680
question is like why were these people

1293
01:00:19,580 --> 01:00:15,400
finding him right hey why why is it that

1294
01:00:21,900 --> 01:00:19,590
they went to John Mac if they are people

1295
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:21,910
alien contact there are people who had

1296
01:00:26,850 --> 01:00:24,250
contact with aliens it was a genuine

1297
01:00:29,220 --> 01:00:26,860
real experience they believed right they

1298
01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:29,230
didn't believe that they were having

1299
01:00:34,140 --> 01:00:31,300
hallucinations or or maybe

1300
01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:34,150
I thought they might be doing so but but

1301
01:00:39,390 --> 01:00:37,210
but in any event it's what's intriguing

1302
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:39,400
me is why is it that they're at his

1303
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:42,480
doorstep why are they in the room with a

1304
01:00:46,980 --> 01:00:45,250
psychiatrist right that indicates

1305
01:00:49,380 --> 01:00:46,990
something's happened and for taking if

1306
01:00:51,660 --> 01:00:49,390
you look at it historically right look

1307
01:00:54,510 --> 01:00:51,670
at the contact these of the 50s look at

1308
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:54,520
the people as I do in this paper I look

1309
01:00:59,310 --> 01:00:56,410
at some of the people who were talked

1310
01:01:01,170 --> 01:00:59,320
about also into the 1960s the number of

1311
01:01:03,950 --> 01:01:01,180
people who ever are talked about ever

1312
01:01:07,260 --> 01:01:03,960
visiting a clinician a psychiatrist

1313
01:01:09,180 --> 01:01:07,270
after their experience is very very

1314
01:01:11,340 --> 01:01:09,190
nominal that's the number to do that is

1315
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:11,350
nominal you have the big figures right

1316
01:01:15,060 --> 01:01:12,970
you have people like Betty and Barney

1317
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:15,070
Hill who end up doing it

1318
01:01:20,100 --> 01:01:17,770
patty price ends up doing this right but

1319
01:01:22,890 --> 01:01:20,110
but it's it's a small number of people

1320
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:22,900
so something changed right we go from a

1321
01:01:28,230 --> 01:01:25,690
world where contact with a of people who

1322
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:28,240
say they had contact with aliens don't

1323
01:01:33,750 --> 01:01:31,570
in fact feel like this requires any kind

1324
01:01:37,110 --> 01:01:33,760
of clinical intervention - by the time

1325
01:01:40,830 --> 01:01:37,120
we get into the 80s and 90s right and it

1326
01:01:44,820 --> 01:01:40,840
explodes it explodes and now but Hopkins

1327
01:01:47,970 --> 01:01:44,830
David Jacobs Leo sprinkle right John

1328
01:01:50,970 --> 01:01:47,980
Mack all of them are engaged in if not a

1329
01:01:52,980 --> 01:01:50,980
regression all of them have a dimension

1330
01:01:55,590 --> 01:01:52,990
in which they are looking at this as

1331
01:01:58,860 --> 01:01:55,600
something that requires a kind of

1332
01:02:01,680 --> 01:01:58,870
therapeutic intervention of some kind

1333
01:02:03,750 --> 01:02:01,690
how did it get how did that happen how

1334
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:03,760
did we get there that's what that's what

1335
01:02:09,030 --> 01:02:06,130
that paper is about I explore how it is

1336
01:02:10,230 --> 01:02:09,040
that we get from point A to point B Wow

1337
01:02:11,640 --> 01:02:10,240
that is fast

1338
01:02:15,570 --> 01:02:11,650
I might have to get a plane ticket over

1339
01:02:18,420 --> 01:02:15,580
there I'll be in I'll actually be there

1340
01:02:20,490 --> 01:02:18,430
a few weeks after that I may have to

1341
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:20,500
reschedule Greg no no no he had Italy

1342
01:02:26,100 --> 01:02:23,290
fat for you well you know besides your

1343
01:02:28,470 --> 01:02:26,110
trip to England you're going to be in DC

1344
01:02:30,330 --> 01:02:28,480
for a while I learned that you're going

1345
01:02:32,580 --> 01:02:30,340
to be doing a fellowship there this is

1346
01:02:34,530 --> 01:02:32,590
so exciting could you tell us a little

1347
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:34,540
bit about this if you don't mind yeah

1348
01:02:40,500 --> 01:02:38,290
sure so I am going to be the Charles a

1349
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:40,510
Lindbergh chair in aerospace history

1350
01:02:44,650 --> 01:02:43,210
class Smithsonian National Air and Space

1351
01:02:46,660 --> 01:02:44,660
Museum

1352
01:02:49,329 --> 01:02:46,670
for the second half of this year yeah

1353
01:02:51,789 --> 01:02:49,339
I'm really excited about it so I'll be

1354
01:02:54,940 --> 01:02:51,799
at the Air and Space Museum where I'm

1355
01:02:56,890 --> 01:02:54,950
going to really be doing two things one

1356
01:02:59,170 --> 01:02:56,900
I'll be doing some research conducting

1357
01:03:01,150 --> 01:02:59,180
research using their library but I'll

1358
01:03:03,700 --> 01:03:01,160
probably also be looking because they're

1359
01:03:05,559 --> 01:03:03,710
based in DC that the Carl Sagan Papers

1360
01:03:07,420 --> 01:03:05,569
which apparently are massive as you can

1361
01:03:09,430 --> 01:03:07,430
imagine but I'll be looking at Carl

1362
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:09,440
Sagan paper and trying to look at some

1363
01:03:15,460 --> 01:03:11,770
of his work and engagements with

1364
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:15,470
ufologists and the UFO phenomenon I'll

1365
01:03:22,089 --> 01:03:18,710
be writing as well but really the best

1366
01:03:25,539 --> 01:03:22,099
part of it is an opportunity to be

1367
01:03:27,730 --> 01:03:25,549
hanging out with and and exchanging

1368
01:03:31,180 --> 01:03:27,740
ideas with some of the world's best

1369
01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:31,190
historians of space and space

1370
01:03:37,210 --> 01:03:34,490
exploration and anyone interested in

1371
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:37,220
aerospace history in general there they

1372
01:03:43,150 --> 01:03:40,970
have a bevy of top-notch historians

1373
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:43,160
frankly people who know far more about

1374
01:03:48,250 --> 01:03:46,250
aerospace history than I do so it's an

1375
01:03:50,319 --> 01:03:48,260
opportunity for me to work with really

1376
01:03:53,980 --> 01:03:50,329
the some of the world's best historians

1377
01:03:55,630 --> 01:03:53,990
and it sort of you know pick their

1378
01:03:58,359 --> 01:03:55,640
brains about some of my observations

1379
01:03:59,950 --> 01:03:58,369
about these things there's some people

1380
01:04:01,870 --> 01:03:59,960
who you know and we're talking about

1381
01:04:05,140 --> 01:04:01,880
people who you know for instance are

1382
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:05,150
experts on the history of rocketry folks

1383
01:04:12,069 --> 01:04:06,770
who are experts in the history of

1384
01:04:16,230 --> 01:04:12,079
astronomy people who done some really

1385
01:04:18,660 --> 01:04:16,240
great work on the popular the culture

1386
01:04:22,140 --> 01:04:18,670
the history of popular culture

1387
01:04:25,450 --> 01:04:22,150
surrounding space and space exploration

1388
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:25,460
all of these things are vital to this

1389
01:04:30,190 --> 01:04:28,010
project I'm working on and so I'm really

1390
01:04:32,170 --> 01:04:30,200
looking forward to being able to sit

1391
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:32,180
around with people who have so much

1392
01:04:36,730 --> 01:04:34,130
experience so much knowledge about these

1393
01:04:39,910 --> 01:04:36,740
things who can give me critical comments

1394
01:04:42,190 --> 01:04:39,920
and and reflect on my own work and gets

1395
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:42,200
getting hopefully refine my arguments a

1396
01:04:45,730 --> 01:04:43,490
little better than they are at this

1397
01:04:48,519 --> 01:04:45,740
stage of the game wow that sounds great

1398
01:04:51,430 --> 01:04:48,529
I mean great it I highly respect what

1399
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:51,440
you're doing both in and out of ufology

1400
01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:53,839
I think you really are tapping into

1401
01:04:58,300 --> 01:04:55,609
something that not many people have done

1402
01:05:00,820 --> 01:04:58,310
and I do consider you a pioneer

1403
01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:00,830
in that sense of moving this field

1404
01:05:04,660 --> 01:05:03,110
forward by looking at the past and

1405
01:05:07,630 --> 01:05:04,670
seeing what we can learn from that that

1406
01:05:09,820 --> 01:05:07,640
is what history is after all well where

1407
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:09,830
can we find out more about the work

1408
01:05:14,290 --> 01:05:11,690
they're doing and keep up to date with

1409
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:14,300
all of this well you can see I have a

1410
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:18,370
blog it's called the UFO past and it's

1411
01:05:29,470 --> 01:05:26,090
my URL is UFO past comm and there I more

1412
01:05:31,630 --> 01:05:29,480
or less intermittently post information

1413
01:05:34,180 --> 01:05:31,640
about some things that are going on like

1414
01:05:36,250 --> 01:05:34,190
these talks and stuff that I'm giving in

1415
01:05:38,740 --> 01:05:36,260
London but every now and again I'll post

1416
01:05:41,020 --> 01:05:38,750
a brief little essay in there about

1417
01:05:42,460 --> 01:05:41,030
something I'm working on or post

1418
01:05:44,140 --> 01:05:42,470
something that that that's interesting

1419
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:44,150
like an exhibit that I've heard about

1420
01:05:49,870 --> 01:05:47,330
that's up there um and yeah so anything

1421
01:05:52,810 --> 01:05:49,880
anything historical about UFOs I am

1422
01:05:54,370 --> 01:05:52,820
interested in so please come on and sign

1423
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:54,380
up and subscribe so you can be updated

1424
01:05:58,000 --> 01:05:56,570
on your email on a regular basis

1425
01:06:00,190 --> 01:05:58,010
whenever I have something new to post

1426
01:06:02,260 --> 01:06:00,200
that's so great well we'll definitely

1427
01:06:04,690 --> 01:06:02,270
post links for your talks coming up for

1428
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:04,700
our friends in England and of all of

1429
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:06,650
Europe actually and great I can't thank

1430
01:06:10,150 --> 01:06:07,970
you enough for taking the time to do

1431
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:10,160
this today I know you're a busy man and

1432
01:06:13,150 --> 01:06:11,570
the fact that you could sit down with us

1433
01:06:16,540 --> 01:06:13,160
for an hour or so to talk to you about

1434
01:06:18,550 --> 01:06:16,550
it was highly refreshing and excites me

1435
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:18,560
about the future of moving forward with

1436
01:06:23,730 --> 01:06:21,410
ufology so thank you so much for joining

1437
01:06:26,110 --> 01:06:23,740
us Ryan always great talking with you

1438
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:26,120
well that's all I got for you this week

1439
01:06:30,430 --> 01:06:28,490
guys for episode 3 if you enjoyed

1440
01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:30,440
today's show I'd absolutely love that

1441
01:06:34,780 --> 01:06:32,510
you'd consider rating and reviewing the

1442
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:34,790
show on iTunes or wherever the hell you

1443
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:36,890
happen to listen and please also

1444
01:06:41,860 --> 01:06:39,050
consider sharing the show across your

1445
01:06:43,570 --> 01:06:41,870
social networks I'm so unbelievably

1446
01:06:46,420 --> 01:06:43,580
amazed at how much the show has grown

1447
01:06:48,670 --> 01:06:46,430
only three episodes in and with your

1448
01:06:50,890 --> 01:06:48,680
help we can continue to grow each and

1449
01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:50,900
every week so thank you for your

1450
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:53,090
constant support if you have any guests

1451
01:06:57,790 --> 01:06:55,610
or topic suggestions or a personal story

1452
01:07:01,390 --> 01:06:57,800
you'd like to share you can email me at

1453
01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:01,400
Sprague at saman sconce com you can also

1454
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:04,160
join our active Facebook page somewhere

1455
01:07:07,870 --> 01:07:05,570
in the skies podcast

1456
01:07:11,350 --> 01:07:07,880
we're also on twitter at somewhere skies

1457
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:11,360
that's it I'll see you here next Monday

1458
01:07:19,650 --> 01:07:13,130
remember keep your feet on the ground